For example, I’m using Debian, and I think we could learn a thing or two from Mint about how to make it “friendlier” for new users. I often see Mint recommended to new users, but rarely Debian, which has a goal to be “the universal operating system”.
I also think we could learn website design from… looks at notes …everyone else.
If you want Debian but user-friendly, just use Mint, Debian is easy enough to install. It’s like asking Gentoo or Arch to drop a easy installer, it would break the point of using it.
Gentoo and Arch do have easy installers (Arch via the Arch install script, Gentoo… Well, they provide stage 3 already built, a genkernel option, and even binary distribution now, which greatly simplifies the process)
Arch install is not official and it’s not that stable, and what’s the point of using Gentoo if you don’t use the main reason to use it ?
Honestly, that one had me scratching my head too, I doubt I’d ever use the precompiled binaries on Gentoo myself
The stage 3 tarballs and genkernel, though, make an install that could take a week or more down to a few hours; having successfully built a system from a stage 1 with customized kernel, that’s not an experience I feel a burning desire to go through again
having successfully built a system from a stage 1 with customized kernel, that’s not an experience I feel a burning desire to go through again
It’s a way to do, and yes it’s not made for everyone. Currently im using vanilla Arch but i understand how great source installed Gentoo is
Would it detract from Debian if it had an installer which was more intuitive to new users? As long as they don’t remove the options to configure, I see no harm, only benefits. To me, the thing about Debian is that it’s a community. If a distro wants to be elitistic, sure, that’s up to them, but I don’t see Debian having that goal.
There’s already an gui installer on Debian, what do you want ? The system to install himself without asking for your preferences ?
I don’t know. It’s difficult for me to answer because I’m so used to the Debian installer. But, for some reason the general opinion is that it’s difficult for many compared to some other distros.
More difficult because Debian rely more on the terminal than mint. The terminal is not a accessorie like on Windows, it’s part of basics Linux uses. In my opinion it’s important to learn how to be familiar with
I think text based interfaces is a strength of unix-like systems, valuable tools to be used when the situation calls for it. It might be a lot to ask of new users to be familiar with terminals before they have even installed the system though. If Mint can get the same result with a GUI, I see no reason why Debian can’t offer that option too, and let users discover bash and TUI when they have a working system.
When you’re beginner it’s normal to not be familiar with terminal, that’s why i recommend Mint as a first distro. What im saying is that We already have Mint as a beginner-friendly distro, we don’t need Debian to be as simple as Mint, also they included non-free firmware in their iso it’s pretty enough imo.
You could check out Spiral Linux for an “easier” installer. It has the option to use the Calamares installer from the live USB instead of Debian’s default. Also comes preloaded with back port repositories and, I think, Nvidia drivers.
I like that Spiral Linux is “plain” Debian, without extra repos. What I’m thinking is more along the lines of “why is Spiral Linux needed to begin with?” Sometimes downstream distros serve a niche function that warrants its own distribution, but sometimes I feel that if upstream improved, the need wouldn’t be there to begin with.
Every distro could learn from Arch Wiki
Even Arch Linux could learn from the Arch Wiki.
The Debian Wiki would actually like a word.
There is stuff in there that’s not found anywhere else. For example while researching driverless printing recently I found a huge page on the Debian Wiki but the Arch wiki only has a paragraph saying supporting printers should be detected automatically.
Can you send that one? I’m actually researching driverless printing right now
The Debian wiki is awsome. But it’s less noob friendly than Arch wiki.
The web UI looks like an old forum from 2000. Don’t get me wrong, a well written manpage style webpage is way better than an eye candy bloated scripted webpage (IMO) and I really like how detailed the Debian wiki is. But in today’s “mental standards”, the Debian wiki is not attractive enough for most new comer.
Also, It seems the Debian wiki is not as indexed as Arch wiki on the web.
Finally… I can’t access their wiki with my VPN ! :/.
But I do agree, The Debian wiki is a gold mine !!!
Everything from each other. Almost no distro will ever be extremely effective at doing anything that is literally impossible on any other distro.
You might like vanilla then. It has containers for each distro, I’m pretty sure.
The one thing I wish every distro would incorporate is the way Gentoo handles config file updates. If there are any changes you get the option of using a very simple side by side merge where you go through all the differences of the old and new configuration where you can decide which one to use going forward.
Pacman just dumps you a .pacnew, leaving the comparison to you (y’know, KISS). Your change isn’t touched, unless it’s .pacsave.
While you will get somewhat the same from apt, I like the Debian way of providing base config support in packages and have local config loaded by include statements.
As you don’t edit the default config and automatic updates can happen w/o user input and your config will stay safe
That’s the way it should be. But it depends on the software.
What really sucks about the Debian way is how it tries to start daemons in the post-install scripts and if that fails (say because the default config tries to use a port already taken) the entire package system shits itself and is unusable until you fix it.
the entire package system shits itself
Usually just the one package fails, unless you have other packages that have a dependency on it. I agree that it’s annoying though.
Well, it stays in that half installed state and interferes with any other use of the package manager.
I might be a special case as I Mostly use Linux for servers. But I have maybe experienced one such case on the last three years on our 50-odd servers
I’ve ran into that with one shitty vendor (I won’t/can’t give any details beyond this) lately. They ‘support’ deb-based distributions, but specially their postinst-scripts don’t have any kind of testing/verification on the environment they’re running in and it seems to find new and exiting ways to break every now and then. I’m experienced (or old) enough with Linux/Debian that I can go around the loopholes they’ve left behind, but in our company there’s not too many others who have sufficient knowledge on how deb-packages work.
And they even either are dumb or play one when they claim that their packages work as advertised even after I sent them their postinst-scripts from the package, including explanations on why this and that breaks on a system which doesn’t have graphical environment installed (among other things).
But that’s absolutely fault on the vendor side, not Debian/Linux itself. But it happens.
Pacdiff does this on arch-based distros
Just installed Debian today. Jesus the site/wiki is ugly
What’s wrong with it?
I mean… Gestures vaguely
You probably shouldn’t be accessing a linux distro’s website from mobile but yeah the site does look weird and amateur
You probably shouldn’t be accessing a linux distro’s website from mobile
Well how else am I going to access it, I borked my computer mid-install :P
You probably shouldn’t be accessing a linux distro’s website from mobile
I don’t think it’s good to hand-wave a website’s poor user experience and instead blame the user’s device. The fact of the matter is that Debian’s website is not as responsive as it could (imo, should) be and results in a bad user experience. With mobile traffic being responsible for over 55% of the internet’s traffic, it can be generally assumed a user’s first experience learning about a distro will be on a mobile device. If that first impression is bad, that can spell bad news for that distro’s adoption/onboarding.
Looks fine to me.
Yeah, just curl it into aplay like the rest of us, jeez
What do you mean, I’m a web dev and that looks completely normal.
Its missing tons of images, CSS and unnecessary frameworks. So no, it is not normal
I don’t even see any video or infinite-scrolling pages.
For me it’s mostly that the site sprawls in unintuitive ways. It’s possible to have a simple look while being easy to navigate, for example (and this is subjective, but still) https://www.openbsd.org/
I miss when this style of website was more popular for software projects. There are plenty of projects with modern websites that still manage to do it well, but there’s just something about the instant familiarity that comes with that type of layout.
I know what you mean, I remember when debians website was like this: https://web.archive.org/web/20021122032757/http://www.debian.org/
Is it just a generation thing, or is it objectively easiler to navigate?
Sorry if my irony wasn’t too obvious. It certainly is not supposed to look that way. There are a lot of pages all over the internet that function just as garbage as this, especially on mobile. That’s why I meant it looks “normal” as in not out of the ordinary.
Debian used to uphold free software values. I’m not sure what its purpose is now.
Debian is a multipurpose I suppose
Arch could use better standard MAC security applied to systemd units like Debian does.
Arch could have an easy few clicks installer, something like a default modern setup.
Live kernel patching.archinstall script worked good for me, i installed arch on 2 kvm yesterday, i just filled blank this script offers and everything was done without me, only one advice, include your users in sudoers file as script doesn’t do that automatically, also there’s gentooinstall script derived from archinstall one
Give me immutable, declarative Arch.
What do you miss in NixOS (Unstable)?
I think a declarative, atomic LTS distro (e.g. Alma) would be quite nice for business use.
I gather that not everything is compatible with nixOS, and it’s better as a server than for development or as a general OS.
I didn’t know Alma was declarative.
Makes sense.
No, I wish for something like Alma, but declarative and atomic :)
It’s something we might see with the next EL release cycle.
rpm-ostree
has treefiles complete with the option for (experimental) lockfiles. There’s already config files for CentOS Stream to build CentOS Stream CoreOS, and those can be adapted for Alma. I think, atm, it’s more of an issue of general interest than technical limitations.Ah nice, thanks for pointing me to it!
I’ve been messing about with NixOS for the past 2 weeks or so. While I think I know enough to plug in the right text in the right spots to get a system configured I feel like I understand nothing about the nix language and the syntax is extremely unintuitive to me. If another distro offered declarative configuration as well as something like Nix’s options I would easily swap away from NixOS at this point.
I feel like I understand nothing about the nix language
Pure lazy unityped lambda calculus, basically a lazy lisp with records instead of lists. Or a pure, lazy, lua.
Pure is important because reproducibility, lazy is important to not have to evaluate all of nixpkgs before you can build anything, lambda calculus well it needs to be turing complete, support things like functions in in some way though TC is only used very, very very deep down in the system. They literally use the y-combinator to do recursion, like when bootstrapping stdenv.
The syntax is unintuitive, yes, but aside from the semicolon cancer actually not that bad. My biggest gripe with the language is it not having a proper type system, like you put a list where a string is expected or the other way around and you get five screenfuls of backtrace through the whole evaluation stack and due to laziness the actual location of the error might not even be in there.
NixOS on your mind too? lol
Yep
I think that’s what BlendOS is working towards. You might keep an eye on them.
Oh nice. This looks promising. I’m guessing it’s not totally ready yet?
It may be ready, I haven’t tried their latest version. Most of the functionality was there, but it had some rough spots. I’ve been meaning to go back and try daily driving it again.
Gentoo - patience.
But seriously. With theUSE
flags, compiler options, you can understand software more from a developer’s point of view.
You can try to optimize software for your hardware.
Fully explore theconfigure
options. With a binary package you have no control.How are those new binary applications coming along? is it feasible to mix. I don’t want to compile everything.
Quite useful if you don’t mess with the
USE
. I can be mixed.
I recently tested the binary option, I set desired profile (eselect profile list
) and it just worked™.
Some applications still require manual compilation, e.g.llvm
,gcc
,systemd
.
I switched my daily driver to Linux Mint Debian Edition recently and it definitely does combine the best of both. It’s easy to use and coming from plain debian has everything that I’m used to. Been loving it so far.
Slackware - if it ain’t broken don’t fix it. Gentoo - USE flags. Mint - user-friendly.
Slackware needs to learn how to be hip like arch. I’m the baby in our irc group, and I’m 40. All the cool kids are using arch BTW.
Never cared much about trends.
It’s nice to find another slacker in the wild.
Slackware is broken, though.
- Its releases are so far apart that the default installer stops working in between releases cause it can’t handle the changes to the repos.
- Its default software selection is outdated, makes no sense (multiple tools for the same task), and is grouped illogically. If I want to run Xfce, I shouldn’t have to install the KDE group to satisfy necessary dependencies. If I install the base group, all dependencies for using the package manager should be satisified. And Libreoffice shouldn’t be installable only via an unofficial, unsupported third party repo.
- Its documentation is so outdated it isn’t useful anymore:
https://docs.slackware.com/howtos:slackware_admin:installing_on_uefi_hardware
“Some modern computers have started to offer motherboards that use Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) as a replacement for the traditional BIOS.”
Don’t use it.
I did use it for a while, then switched to something else.
Still have a soft spot for it in my heart, I just wish they’d modernize a little.
Probably the start menu back to what it should be. Back with distro windows xp.
Wait no nvm wrong community.
Oh you can complain about both. Use WinXP-tc with XFCE to get a pixel perfect clone of the XP start menu. Then start complaining that distros are moving to Wayland where WinXP-tc won’t work.
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You can create a alisis
It would be pretty neat if they did like zsh does, where it asks you if you mean a certain command when you only type it partially.
Why can’t the installation create aliases like
flatpak run jellyfin-media-player
? And then highlight conflicts during?It would also be nice if it could alias to the normal command, for example, LibreOffice with CLI commands like lowriter or localc.
Did you know you can evoke LibreOffice from the terminal to convert one file format to another? It can do what Pandoc does, but also works on old .doc files. Flatpak’s weird CLI behavior makes it difficult to use though.
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This is extremely simple to fix with scripts that can be automatically created on install time. Here is a quick script I just wrote. It will search for first matching app and run it. Just save the script as flatrun, give it executable bit and put it into $PATH. Run it as like this:
flatrun freetube
#!/usr/bin/env bash # flatrun e # flatrun freetube if [ "${#}" -eq 0 ]; then flatpak list --app --columns=name,application else app="$( flatpak list --app --columns=name,application | grep -i -F "${@}" | awk -F'\t' '{print $2}' )" if [ -z "${app}" ]; then flatpak list --app --columns=name,application elif [[ "$(echo "${app}" | wc -l)" -gt 1 ]]; then echo "${app}" else flatpak run "${app}" fi fi
Edit: Just updated the script to output the list of matching apps, if it matches more than one.
Yes and I did a similar script but “just create a script” is a really bad solution.
Apps should need to declare a shortname and flatpak should have a shortcut for those with a separated command like flatrun.
That would mean the app has access to the path, which was explained as insecure in another place
I personally don’t think that creating a script is a bad solution. The entire Linux eco system is based around composable components (especially when we talk about terminal commands). Most of the Flatpak applications are available through GUI menus (.desktop files) and that’s the focus of Flatpak. And I think it’s a design decision not to expose every application as a separate program in the $PATH by default. This way there is less of a chance to collide with anything random on the system, if they have the same name.
Having said this, I still agree it would be beneficial for most users if there was a way to automatically create scripts in a special
bin
folder, that is available in the $PATH. The problem is, what application name should it have? What about different versions of the same program? The entire Flatpak concept was not designed for this, so creating a script for your personal use is not a bad solution.Repeating, apps should need to declare a shortname. I think my script currently has no mechanism for detecting duplicates
Please read my reply before you repeat. How should the different versions of an application be handled? What if the shortname is already taken? There will be collisions, which the longname tries to solve. Flatpak is not a repository where all names can be checked against, this is the job of a repository like Flathub. What about different versions of an application?
This is not a simple case of forcing to specify shortnames.
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flatpak run com.github.iwalton3.jellyfin-media-player
You can use
/var/lib/flatpak/exports/bin/com.github.iwalton3.jellyfin-media-player
instead. and then create aliases or symlinks (for example in ~/bin/) for that.@lemmyreader @barbara it’s a bit annoying but I kinda like that I have to manually link it a bit. So I create sh scripts in the usr/local/bin that just execute the flatpak run command
Wow I was not aware of that folder! Thanks.
https://github.com/boredsquirrel/flatalias
Or my PR for that, that makes aliases on every login. I just have to fix it to work with user flatpaks as well: https://github.com/bjoern-tantau/flatalias/tree/patch-1
There’s a reason security people don’t use flatpak, but that’s not it.
It’d be dangerous if an installed app claimed to be something like sudo or bash. Even if a mechanism was created for flatpak apps to claim a single shell command, there is no centralized authority on all flatpak apps to vet them. If there was for flathub, and each uploaded package was checked, that still leaves every other non-flathub flatpak repo which must implement the same vetting. Because there’s no way to guarantee to do it safely, and because flatpak devs are unwilling to compromise, this is just what we get.
However in the same way, compromised flatpak app can also put a malicious .desktop file in
~/.share/applications
, which also allows execution of arbitrary command, even outside of the flatpak sandbox.User home permission is just incredibly dangerous on linux, I think we need special permission to explicitly allow access to these folders in home. Fortunately more and more app starts to support portal, which makes them much more secure.
Although, I do wish portal would have a access per session vs access forever option. For now if you open a folder through portal, the app was granted r/w permission to that folder forever.
Not my current distro but I love ChimeraLinux, they manage to put musl and BSD userland into a working wonderful distro. I wish more distros adopted musl.
What I am really hoping catches on from Chimera is Turnstile: https://github.com/chimera-linux/turnstile
While I love that Chimera is Wayland only from the start ( no Xorg ), I do hope we get more DE options than just GNOME at some point.
Early days still for Chimera. I expect big things.
I’d really like it if Fedora didn’t discourage packaging static libs, but still discouraged building packages with static libs. It’d be nice to have them for development purposes.
I also wish they made “third party” software a bit easier to access in their installer and distro as a whole. The option to enable Nvidia drivers is buried, and even though flathub is now unrestricted when toggled in the installer, it’s not the first priority when prompted for software to install in gnome software.
A longer support cycle with less releases would also be nice, but would defeat the purpose of the distro. I guess it’d make more sense if CentOS Stream released more frequently and with more packages available in EPEL, similar to Ubuntu.
The option to enable Nvidia drivers is buried
You just type Nvidia into Software. They’ll never promote it unfortunately.
Also you will need to setup secure boot in commandline, unless you are using ublue.
That’s what I tried, it never showed up, even though the repo was enabled. Had to install it via terminal.