She had interviewed and met both remotely and in person, this guy was merely an HR drone confirming her documentation. I was a little bent when she told me he had asked her to remove her blur filter “to have a look at her working environment, make sure it’s not cluttered” (something along those lines). No one else at this company requested such. Was he way out of line?
I should note, this is my PC in our living room and not where she will be working from. And this guy wants a look around our home?! Told my wife to bring this up once she’s settled in, ask HR if this is policy. She started today!
She thinks it’s a racism thing. I’m not so sure, but I don’t have any other explanation.
There was just a news article about US corporations hiring North Koreans for remote work unintentionally, and the north Koreans then did a sabotage and stole secrets… Strikes me as HR is freaking out across the board and they were looking to confirm you aren’t actually based in a foreign country. It is very easy to hide where you are(phone numbers can be forwarded, addresses can be false). If it’s a 1 time thing, not racism, if they consistently single her out, is there anyone else of her race being singled out? Did HR maybe get a derogatory report from someone that doesn’t like her and they wanted to see if she was sober? That’s happened to me.
That is the reason why identification documents are needed. How can they hire people without knowing who they are?
NK stole the identity of other Americans. They dotted i’s and crossed t’s to get into knowb4 via social engineering. Really fucked up.
Edit: check out the link above for full story
North koreans proving that a north korean can do the job of the average american tech worker lol
KnowBe4 has an article about their experience.
They also covered at least one other instance in the US.
Seems like something sufficient IT security could prevent easily enough.
I wouldn’t call that kosher, personally.
You really shouldn’t hire a wife, that seems wrong
I mean I bet he got a really good deal for it otherwise he wouldn’t be bragging on the internet
Is this the US? Because iirc there’s some workplace injury stuff in some EU countries, where the company might be liable and so they might need to advise you to do certain things to prevent injury if you work remotely.
Not trying to take the wind out of your sails, just making ppl aware.
I’ve had similar language in employment agreements in the US and in Japan, framed around safety and insurance compliance. I never had to send an actual picture, but I’m pretty sure they said they reserved the right to ask for one.
… except they ask you for a photo in the other direction, showing your chair and desk and keyboard. And not by surprise, just “send us a picture sometime for the audit.”
Idk, every company is different and so is every country.
But let me also make clear, I’m not arguing this isn’t odd. Just some things to rule out before going mayhem.
US, yes. But the worker’s comp code for this position would be “clerical”. Nothing is rated safer by the comp insurance companies. Having worked for an employee leasing firm, I never heard of any sorts of safety requirements beyond normal office stuff. Fire extinguishers and first-aid kits, and that’s only for a shared office environment.
Same thing in Canada. When we transitioned to fully remote we had to ensure that our workspace is safe.
It’s actually a really nice thing to know that (a) your country makes sure you get into less accidents and (b) that your company usually pays for any workplace accidents, even if it’s remote.
I work remotely at a company in the EU where they actually host seminars about posture and stuff because it’s better for them than dealing with workplace injury from bad posture.
I can see this as a one time verification to help verify the video isn’t being faked / you aren’t working out of a remote cube farm in another country.
Clearwater firm KnowBe4 accidentally hires North Korean hacker
She’s met them in person and the 6-week training is in person.
It sure sounds like racism and poorphobia to me. HR trying to make sure her surroundings don’t look like what a “typical poor person” would have (clutter, children, signs of disability, “drugs”, etc.) It’s not super common, but it’s common enough that I hear about it every so often.
I can’t offer any kind of legal advice, but it sounds like this job will be potentially problematic and HR will definitely be one to watch out for.
ETA: There’s a lot of paranoia in the US right now about “laptop farms”. Remote jobs are paranoid about people getting remote work to send money back to North Korea. It’s completely ridiculous, and it’s causing issues for a lot of people, mostly marginalized people. I think it’s useful context to know why this kind of thing is happening more lately.
That was knowbe4, a fairly large player in the information technology security game, failing to vet its own employees and potentially exposing its customers to a foreign hacker.
Exactly what I was referencing! I’ve known a few people who were recently fired from remote jobs under very strange circumstances. I can’t prove anything of course, but I distinctly got the feeling that they were fired because the intersection of their marginalizations made them look like “evil North Korean spies” to management.
If I hadn’t seen the blatant discrimination she’s faced job hunting, I’d be more skeptical. She’s Filipino, but that’s “Mexican” to many. When I say blatant, I mean to say heads would roll if we had some of this on camera. She’s mostly unhurt by these things, just figures that’s the way of the world. But damn. One lady asked if she was Asian and was visibly appalled. Another said she would have to attend their church, and barely stopped short of asking her to renounce Catholicism. There’s much more I’m not remembering ATM.
What’s shocking is that this employer is widely considered to be the best in the whole area. Solid pay and benefits, really cares about their people. My ex-wife worked there and loved them. I’m guessing their HR folks would have kittens if they knew this guy had pulled this.
Also, just read your edit, makes much more sense. Still, I would have said, “This is not where I will be working. If you want to pick this back up in 5, I can be in my home office.” (We hadn’t set up proper video cam or setup the laptop so I had her use my machine.)
Having said that, this is a hybrid position, so the laptop farm shouldn’t be an issue. She’ll be in 3 times a week.
I completely believe all of that, and I’m sorry she’s had to deal with so much crap. Lately a lot of employers seem to be showing their asses by being overtly racist, ableist, and transphobic. Everyone I know who isn’t a white straight cis man has had employment troubles in the last six months.
I hope this is just a strange interaction with one HR person and you have a better time with everyone else!
This could be raised as discrimination. Not only regarding income, but could also be against disabilities. People with ADHD (hello it’s me!) are really bad at organizing, especially desks and work areas (I work in layers of papers like sedimentation). I would definitely take notes on this incident and if it continues or if he job gets changed following.
Definitely! However if your first experience with HR is being discriminated against, raising concerns about discrimination can be dangerous. Who do you go to when HR is causing the issues? HR is there to protect the company, not you. If the easiest way to protect the company is to fire someone, HR will probably do that.
I’m not trying to talk OP or anyone else out of going to HR, they aren’t always sharks waiting to fire someone. It’s just good to be careful here and OP and their wife should be aware of the risks before taking any action. Definitely document this incident. If this becomes a repeat issue, documentation can be the difference between getting fired and winning a wrongful termination lawsuit.
That’s why I said keep notes. Recount the event with timestamp. If things continue or get worse you now have a file with all occurrences. And if you get fired for calling out HR, that’s an easy lawsuit.
HR can protect the company by reigning this guy in. I really feel it was a lone wolf thing, not policy.
I’d like to approach them anonymously, but it might be obvious who I was talking about.
HR can protect the company by reigning this guy in. I really feel it was a lone wolf thing, not policy.
Very true! Like I said, I’m not trying to convince you to not bring it up, just that it’s something to be careful about, and to make sure you have evidence or documentation.
Agreed. Unfortunately a lot of people don’t have a union, and sometimes unionizing just isn’t possible.
Ah the sedimentary filing system. I can tell you exactly when I last touched each layer of each pile and what’s there but if I file it all away somewhere I can’t tell you shit.
My wife moves my personal piles around and royally jacks me up. As to work, I’m much more organized because of deadline and customer expectations.
I’ve been remote the past 5 years as well. I’ve never heard of anyone, anywhere, for any reason being asked to un-blur video. Customers, vendors, coworkers, everyone does it. In fact, I consider it more professional, and certainly less distracting to do so unless you background is 100% work dedicated. Hence my post.
okay but consider that you don’t have as much surveilance of your employees, and without that, how are you supposed to discipline them?
Just checking, youre being sarcastic right?
I was riffing on the original and translated titles of foucault’s most well known work. whether it was sarcasm or not; 🤷♀️
Even in a 100% work dedicated office, there is no background that looks as professional and uncluttered as a blurred one.
I only unblur if I’m showing off my bookshelf or video game posters
I only leave my stuff unblurred cuz my cats like to be on cam.
My cat will get in front of me on camera, so blurring wouldn’t even do anything
Your title suggests that you’re asking whether it seems like a violation to you.
Only you can answer this question.
I do thinks it a violation, or at the least, it’s a strange request, especially given the context I noted.
What I’m asking is, “What’s everyone else’s take on this?”
I love tom scott.
me too! international treasure. and yes, that’s where i learned about grice’s maxims.
It genuinely helped me with communication I think. (I’m autistic)
that’s awesome! also a great way to detect and maybe even argue against bad faith arguments. you can tell people are arguing in bad faith when they’re not cooperating about what you’re telling them (pretending “black lives matter” implies “other lives don’t” is a clear example of a non-cooperative interpretation in order to portray it as a malicious sentiment).
AHRAB
All HR Are Bastards?
That’s a bingo
I initially read it as someone saying ‘Arab’ in a stereotypical Southern drawl, and I was confused.
I don’t know if they’re all bastards, but HR is absolutely not your friend. Human Resources <> protections for employees. Instead, Human Resources = protection for the company
Technically anything that is a “resource” for a company is something that is meant to be exploited for profit.
I don’t know if they’re all bastards
As it’s not likely that all people who work in HR have unmarried parents, it’s probably less literal language that labels them as belonging to a group of people who would harm you if it suited their interests.
All the HR people I’ve known who were not like that eventually left their job, because what they were asked to do went beyond their moral boundaries. Leaving HR to be the ones who were, indeed, those who didn’t feel such qualms.
I was a little bent when she told me he had asked her to remove her blur filter “to have a look at her working environment, make sure it’s not cluttered” (something along those lines).
Creepy.
She had already met them in person and will be working in the office 3 days a week. I understand the concern, but this is not that.
I get it. I misread the post earlier. If unblurring the background was useful to uncover anyone helping her during an interview then maybe, but it’s not. We do a lot of these and my clients have requirements like what I wrote before (when I misunderstood), but I have never come across someone objecting to a privacy setting like that. It’s fucking weird.
The post was about being asked to disable background blurring specifically.
A large percentage of people in Human Resources are absolute idiots. They often use their own perspective as what the company should be doing.
Ask them politely where that rule is because you want to understand. If they cannot provide it, immediately share all the conversation with your manager.
It may lead to nothing. Or discovery that this HR guy seems to always ask women to unblur their cameras and now they got a sexism case on their hands.
My I-9 verification is birth certificate, so no photo. Not sure how unblurring would help? I’ve never done it remotely though. Wanting to see work environment isn’t so great. I set up for a video interview a while back by carefully positioning the camera so there was nothing interesting around or behind me. I had trouble getting the video working though, so we did a voice-only phone interview instead, which was much better anyway.
Long before Covid, the company I worked for started trialing work from home for some call center agents. They had a whole list of requirements for an acceptable work from home space: dedicated work area with a desk, locking file drawer (why??? I don’t know), first aid kit, fire extinguisher, etc. Someone would actually go out to physically inspect the space to make sure every box was checked.
My guess is someone from legal wrote up the requirements from a workplace safety standpoint. They probably could have just had the employee sign a statement agreeing that they met all of the requirements, but someone in the middle got overzealous about their role. During Covid, everyone got sent home permanently without any regard to any of those rules, so clearly they weren’t that important in the first place.
We need to provide a photo of our home work area as part of our application for work from home. It’s needed as part of the employer’s duty of care - managers are supposed to examine the photo and determine its a safe work area
Really all that happens is a photo is attached to the application and never looked at
I doubt American employers have any duty of care towards work from home employees.
I bet the unblurring was about being able to see the documents. AI blur is pretty aggressive at blurring anything that isn’t a face
Hmm, so, policy in our office is a clean desk. Before you jump to conclusions, it’s because our secured area and office occasionally has people come through that should absolutely not see what information we have on our desks. This requirement is a compliance issue for our continued contracts and certifications.
Our work from home policy hasn’t addressed this issue, but it sounds like it’s a clear gap. Your neighbour coming around for a cup of tea absolutely should not be able to see any work related information.
My assumption is that someone has considered this kind of aspect and had a check to confirm that they’ve done diligence by asking you to reveal your working space. A space the companies sensitive information would be visible. Actually you too should maybe not be looking at your wife’s screen nor materials on her work desk. Depending on the situation.
Either way, policy comes first so perhaps her employment agreement or employee handbook would reveal more.
How can one not have a clean desk when working remotely? Do people just print random documents for no good reason when you can just have it on the screen?
I don’t even think my work would even let me plug in a printer to my MacBook, they disabled all the USB drivers except mouse and keyboard to prevent usage of flash drives and other unauthorized peripherals.
They made damn sure the only thing displaying sensitive information is the computer screen, which automatically locks after 5 minutes and cannot be configured by the user. I’d really have to willingly show company data for this to be a problem.
That really shouldn’t matter at all for remote workers as everything should be self contained in the company provided computer, with encryption enabled, strong password policy, 2FA, the whole thing.
We have a clean desk policy at my workplace too, we also don’t take classified documents home
Bravo! A well stated and sane explanation. She will be working in the financial sector, so that explains much. Doesn’t quite fit her situation, but yeah, I get it.
