It can look dumb, but I always had this question as a kid, what physical principles would prevent this?
Nah, I prefer using quantum spookiness for that. Send a steady stream of entangled particles to the other person on the moon first. Any time you do something to the particles on Earth, the ones on the Moon are affected also. The catch is that this disentangles them, so you have only a few limited uses. This is why you want a constant stream of them being entangled.
This wouldn’t work, entangled particles don’t work like that. They would be disentangled the moment you do anything to either particle of the entangled pair. The only time any information can be encoded onto entangled particles is when they’re created.
The only time any information can be encoded onto entangled particles is when they’re created.
If that were the case, then we aren’t really doing FTL communication, unless we manage to entangle them at a distance. No?
OIC, it’s still useful if we want to make a secret key and send it somewhere. Then both sides can take a reading sometime in the future and they can then use whatever cluster of entangled particles they saw, as the symmetric key.
Any time you do something to the particles on Earth, the ones on the Moon are affected also
The no-communication theorem already proves that manipulating one particle in an entangled pair has no impact at al on another. The proof uses the reduced density matrices of the particles which capture both their probabilities of showing up in a particular state as well as their coherence terms which capture their ability to exhibit interference effects. No change you can make to one particle in an entangled pair can possibly lead to an alteration of the reduced density matrix of the other particle.
You also cannot choose the spins of entangled particles, they collapse randomly in either direction when interacted with, meaning you cannot send messages. If you can figure out how to directly influence the spin of generated subatomic particles then BAM you have FTL communication.
But you would be amazed how many obstacles the universe throws in front of you when you try to break the speed of causality. Faster than light communication isn’t possible because it makes no sense when you understand it. It’s like “getting answers faster than questions.” It’s nonsense.
always had this question as a kid
And then went, draw it out, and asked.
I applaud that (and the art), good for you.(And the good people already provided answers.)
The problem is that when you push an object, the push happens at the speed of sound in that object. It’s very fast but not anywhere near the speed of light. If you tapped one end of the stick, you would hear it on the moon after the wave had traveled the distance.
For example, the speed of sound in wood is around 3,300 m/s so 384,400/3,300 ~= 32.36 hours to see the pole move on the moon after you tap it on earth.
Wow, TIL that the speed of sound has this equivalence
It’s also why rocket nozzles can’t be infinitely thin :)
I don’t get it. Care to explain?
There are multiple forces at work in a converging rocket nozzle:
- The exhaust is pushed outward faster since the hole is smaller, giving the rocket extra thrust
- The exhaust hits the wall of the nozzle as it gets thinner, braking the rocket
These two effectively cancel out, which is why the actual effect of making the nozzle thinner/converge is that it increases the back pressure within the engine (constricted space, smaller hole), essentially (idk how) increasing the efficiency of the fuel burning.
However, when the nozzle gets too thin, the exhaust becomes faster than its speed of sound. Since the pressure travels at the speed of sound, it can now not actually get back into the engine anymore. So that’s the limit of how thin you can make the nozzle. The pressure has to get back into the engine to have its effect, so you can’t make the exhaust travel faster than its speed of sound.
If any of this sounds wrong to anyone, let me know, I’m not an expert in this.
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Exactly
I swear I’ve seen a video of someone timing the speed of pushing a very long pole to prove this very thing. If I can find it I’ll post it here.
*Found it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqhXsEgLMJ0 I can’t speak to the rigorousness of the experiment, but I remember finding it enlightening.
Cool vid, thanks for sharing
AlphaPhoenix is definitely one of the best scientists on YouTube, that video is good.
Your math is off. The Moon is about 384,400 KILOmeters from the Earth, not meters. So 116,485 seconds, or a bit over 32 hours.
Oh right. I’ll edit my comment
Damn, so that means no FTL communication for now… 😅
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Hear me out… What about a metal stick?
Metal is a lot heavier than wood. You’d never be able to lift it to the moon.
What if you had a crane?
Or a duck.
Or hope
You should make it out of feathers. Steel is heavier than feathers.
But can you lift it from the moon? Gravity is a lot lower there.
Large if factual
🤘
For now
13 hours later Now?
Hold on, let me check. I don’t think so
The speed of ‘push’ is effectivly the speed of sound in a medium. So your shove would be the same as propagating a soundwave through whatever that rod is made of.
Veritassium covers this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPsG8td7C5k&t=61s
Short version: forces applied to solid objects move at the speed of sound in that object.
Lets say your stick is made of steel. The speed of sound in steel is about 19,000 feet/second. Assuming you could push hard enough for the force to be felt on the other end, it’d take over 18 hours for your partner on Earth to feel your push from the moon.
It would work, but only in the impossible world where you have a perfectly rigid unbreakable stick. But such an object cannot exist in this universe.
Pick up a solid rigid object near you. Anything will do, a coffee cup, a comb, a water bottle, anything. Pick it up from the top and lift it vertically. Observe it.
It seems as though the whole object moves instantaneously, does it not? It seems that the bottom of the object starts moving at the exact same instant as the top. But it is actually not the case. Every material has a certain elasticity to it. Everything deforms slightly under the tiniest of forces. Even a solid titanium rod deforms a little bit from the weight of a feather placed upon it. And this lack of perfect rigidity means that there is a very, very slight delay from when you start lifting the top of the object to when the bottom of it starts moving.
For small objects that you can manipulate with your hands, this delay is imperceptible to your senses. But if you observed an object being lifted with very precise scientific equipment, you could actually measure this delay. Motion can only transfer through objects at a finite speed. Specifically, it can only move at the speed of sound through the material. Your perfectly rigid object would have an infinite speed of sound within it. So yes, it would instantly transfer that motion. But with any real material, the delay wouldn’t just be noticeable, but comically large.
Imagine this stick were made of steel. The speed of sound in steel is about 5120 m/s. The distance to the Moon is about 400,000 km. Converting and dividing shows that it would actually take about 22 hours for a pulse like that to travel through a steel pole that long. (Ignoring how the steel pole would be supported.)
So in fact, you are both right and wrong. You are correct for the object you describe. A perfectly rigid object would be usable as a tool of FTL communication. But such an object simply cannot exist in this universe.
A perfectly rigid object would be usable as a tool of FTL communication
Would it though? I feel like the theoretical limit is still c
What about using c++ or rust?
That’ll anger the universe’s devs who will then bully you.
Yes, the speed of sound in an object is how fast neighboring atoms can react to each other, and not only is that information (therefore limited to C already) but specifically it’s the electric field caused by the electrons that keep atoms certain distances from each other and push each other around. And changes in the electric/magnetic fields are famously carried by photons (light) specifically - so even in bulk those changes move at the speed of light at most
Yes, that’s the point. The limit c denies the possibility of a perfectly rigid body existing physically. It can only exist as a thought experiment.
It’s even wilder when you take the concept of ridgidity and transfer of energy out of the equation and just think in terms of pure information propagating though a light cone. Rigidity itself is a function of information.
Username checks out.
that makes sense, i forgot that pushing something is basically like creating a sound wave on it ^^’ thank you :)
As an object becomes “closer” to a perfectly rigid object it becomes denser, would such an object eventually collapse onto itself and become a black hole? Or is there another limit to how dense/rigid an object can be?
Seems likely. The most rigid materially known, (or at least theorized) is nuclear pasta.. Nuclear pasta only forms inside neutron stars, stellar objects that are the last stage of matter before matter gives up entirely and collapses into a black hole.
Great explanation, thank you!
The pole would basically be a space elevator. I suspect gravity and inertia would effectively keep you from moving the stick. Even if you could move it, you’d only be able to move it at a speed that would seem like it’s stationary. As such, the light would still be faster.
At this scale, the stick isn’t as solid as your intuition would lead you to believe. Instead, you have to start thinking about the force at the atomic scale. The atoms in your hand have an outer shell of electrons which you use to impart a force to the electrons in the outer atoms of the stick on your end. That force needs to be transferred atom to atom inside the stick, much like a Newton’s Cradle. Importantly, this transfer is not instantaneous, each “bump” takes time to propagate down the stick and will do so slower than the speed of light in a vacuum. It’s basically a shockwave traveling down the length of the stick. The end result is that the light will get to the person on the other end before the sequence of sub-atomic bumps has the chance to get there.
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The whole poll does not move as end entire unit instantaneously. You send a sort of shock-wave through the poll, when you push it from your end. That shockwave has a travel time that’s much slower than light. I suspect that the speed of that shockwave probably proportional to the speed of sound in the material that the poll is made of.
Because the stick isn’t infinitely rigid. If you push it at one end the other end doesn’t immediately start moving. The time it takes, I think, is equal to the speed of sound inside that material. Ultimately the forces that bind atoms together and allow them to interact are limited by the speed of light.
I ran this by an engineer and they said the same thing
Huh…so we may fail to achieve faster than light (FTL) travel but we could probably manage faster than stick (FTS) travel
Easily. I imagine that most spacecraft are already traveling faster than the speed of stick. It’s likely only a few thousand meters per second
You’re gonna want a powerful laser probably and ain’t no stick that big like not even fkn close not even if we tried so that’s why would’nt tbqh
This doesn’t account for blinking.
If your friend blinks, they won’t see the light, and thus would be unable to verify whether the method works or not.
But how does he know when to open his eyes? He can’t keep them open forever. Say you flash the light once, and that’s his signal to keep his eyes open. Okay, but how long do you wait before starting the experiment? If you do it immediately, he may not have enough time to react. If you wait too long, his eyes will dry out and he’ll blink.
This is just not going to work. There are too many dependent variables.
Do you think it would be possible if you remove the astronauts eyelids? Would that enable faster than light communication?
The only way to know for sure is by trying
Okay done i got his lids whos got the space gear and the impossible stick
You joke, but this is a real problem in computing Obligatory link to Tom Scott video.
I’m not a scientist, but when I asked the same question before they said, “compression.”
Like, the stick would absorb the power of your push, and it would shrink (across its length) before the other end moved. When the other end does finally move, it’s actually the compression reaching it.
