Hi all! This is an alt for anonymity. Please be gentle, this is a hard topic for me to discuss.
I’m a progressive United States citizen who is looking to get out. I’m of Italian descent so I’m working on getting Italian citizenship through jure sanguinis, but it’s going to take some time, if it works at all (gotta substantiate some relations) and won’t extend to my husband until he completes a citizenship test, which he can do after living in Italy for two years.
Here’s my big question: is moving to Italy even a good idea?
I know there’s a significant element of fascism there, but that seems to be the case to varying extents throughout Europe. I’ve visited a few times as a tourist and everyone was very kind. I also have a US cousin that lives there as a permanent resident near Napoli and she is very encouraging, saying people will be welcoming. We don’t want much, just to make a living and maybe have a kid.
you’re aware that italy is ahead of us in the fascism timeline, right?
Yeah but their velocity is much much lower atm.
how so?
Outside of losing a war, I’m not sure of any civilization that’s changed as hard and fast as America is at the moment. And it’s only going to get worse as the economy crashes.
the united states is part of a civilization that’s changing more rapidly than the rest of it and even then, only its privileged classes; italy’s another part of western civilization that has also changed in the same manner and to a further degree than americans have (so far).
No self-coup happened yet, most constitutional freedoms are still respected, there are no political extra-judicial arrests (or at least not that many). Except for some repression of communitarian spaces and public protests, it is not sensibly different from any center/center-right neoliberal government.
if by “self-coup” you referring to trump’s election; they did the same thing with their own fascists and their parliament helped in the same way that our congress helped and their repression is also focused on lgbt arena’s like ours is; but goes well beyond minor policy changes and it’s here where they’ve gone further down the fascism timeline than we have.
I’m talking about a private individual invading the physical and digital spaces of public institutions with the president providing political cover and stopping other parts of the state to intervene. That’s a self-coup. Nothing like that happened in Italy and so far the government is operating within legality.
and it’ll become just as legal here if anyone ever tried to challenge it in the courts; this seems like a tiny technicality to me.
No, that’s still just a normal coup of congress’s authority
I can’t offer much but to say I’m quite jealous, lol. My wife and I have researched just about every possible opportunity to do the same, just to find everything either doesn’t apply to us or is just out of reach at this time (and for the foreseeable future). Asking for help around this topic typically leads to an insane amount of backlash online, so I’ve found…
If you’re able, come as an expat. There are lot’s of jobs that allow you to stay and after 5 years (differs by country), you can request citizenship.
Yeah, the Italian subs on the other place weren’t very kind when I asked a few years ago.
If I might offer some possibly applicable advice, hire a genealogist if you think you’re eligible but are stuck. I spent ten of hours researching what seemed like a dead end. We hired a genealogist who found what I needed in less than two hours and pointed out another eligible line I didn’t know qualified.
We’ve explored that route pretty thoroughly, unfortunately… Neither of us are eligible.
Hello, Italian here.
So I’ve been a traveller most of my life, for work, and when I was younger, like so many Italians, I dreamed of emigrating to so many different places; life had other plans, and I stayied. Luckily I was able to make a career in a profitable field, and over time I came to appreciate my own country, always looking forward to coming back home.
There’s much to be said for Italy’s cultural heritage and natural beauty, and anywhere you may be in our country, a weekend getaway to visit a beatiful city, historical sites, beach or mountainside is always fairly accessible.While the rightward move is worrisome, we also have the factor that governments in Italy rarely last to the end of their mandate (we’ve been getting better on that), let alone get elected more than once. Italy was never rid of fascism, in part because that wasn’t in the US’ interest, but also always had one of the strongest communist factions in Europe, so who knows.
What I’ve got to warn you about is economic struggles: Italy has among the lowest wages in developed Europe, for most of us it is impossible to afford an abode alone, most people wait until they’re married because it takes two working people to be able to pay for a single apartment or house (houses for most people are only affordable way outside of cities) and where possible we get mortgages, because rents are impossible; all of our lives are coloured by monetary constraints: we drive small cars because they’re cheaper to own and operate, we mostly hang clothes because driers are another appliance you have to buy and are expensive to run, we rely on a deteriorating public healthcare system because private healthcare is, while usually accessible, an expense we cannot afford.
That said, if you can manage to find good paying jobs, in my opinion this is a good place to live. Of course you need to speak Italian, there’s very low knowledge of English here.
Best work chances are in the North, unfortunately it’s also the least appealing when it comes to natural surroundings, fog, humid heat and bad weather are typical unless you go WAY north to the Alps. If you really feel the need to be in a left-leaning environment, Emilia Romagna is the “red” land of Italy, since the country’s creation has always been governed by left wing parties, and as such has among the best public infrastructure.Let me know if you need to know anything more.
It’s not really clear what you’re trying to communicate
Thank you so much for a very helpful and detailed response. We’re both planning on working remotely and we’d actually prefer to live outside of the cities. I’m good at learning languages and my husband is bilingual and excellent with accents, so we will work at being fluent in the language of wherever we settle.
In your opinion, can we ever be fully accepted by any Italian community or will we always be “that (hopefully) nice American couple”. I worry because we’re missing all the cultural touchstones gained from growing up in Italy. We’ve been advised to be persistently nice with neighbors and that bigger cities will have English speaking immigrants we can meet up with, but we really want to integrate, acknowledging it’ll take time and effort. Do you think that is possible?
We’re both planning on working remotely and we’d actually prefer to live outside of the cities.
Meaning you already have jobs lined up for this? Remote work in Italy is not uncommon but not super common either, and usually it’s not full remote. Be aware that many areas of Italy have poor connection speeds.
can we ever be fully accepted by any Italian community
I don’t see why not. Maybe focus on being yourselves rather than what you want to be seen as! Of course making new friends as adults always presents challenges, anywhere, but Italians are known to be friendly and outgoing.
Meaning you already have jobs lined up for this?
Yeah, we already work remotely. My employer is fine with my working anywhere in the world. My husband’s employer isn’t, but he’s working on new employment. We can survive on my income alone.
Maybe focus on being yourselves rather than what you want to be seen as!
Thanks, that’s the plan! We’re both friendly and outgoing, I think more than most Americans, so I’m hoping that helps.
Thanks again for the info and your encouragement. We experienced a lot of xenophobia when we previously asked on Reddit, so this has been really refreshing.
If you need anything else let me know! Godspeed.
I say go for it. You have better luck getting rid of fascism in Europe than you have in the US. Just know that if US influence is waning over this part of the world, it means US democrat as well. And China will likely become the new big influence on the region if not Russia. And such a transition will be very violent.
This is true, if Europe goes fascist the Americans will invade and bring y’all some more freedom. If the United States goes fascist we’re all just screwed.
politically speaking i think that makes no sense. i mean, you’re leaving because of the far right in power in the u.s., but then again italy is being governed by the far right. leaving your country, and therefore much of what you know, your support network, for political reasons only makes sense if there’s a well funded fear for your life because of your political activities. in that case i (as a communist) would probably go to a country with bland politics (where the far right would have no risk of reaching power for at least 10 years or so), or a straight up communist country, even if not of the same persuation.
there are other things that might make italy more attractive, such as having public healthcare, decent education, some social security coverage (subpar as compared to much of the rest of western europe, i think), cheap groceries. however, on the other side, housing and utilities are expensive. it will be better if you have a degree or some sort of qualification in high demand, it will be easier for you to get a job. however, when you’re an immigrant, locals will probably give preference to other locals, at least because it will be easier to communicate with.
Yes but isn’t Italy part of the EU? Once he’s in, it is easier to move to a different more liberal country member of the Union.
Moving to another country, especially when the native language is not English, that’s a massive challenge. It’s important that you’re going there for a positive reason. Otherwise you could have chosen anywhere, right? So your motivation to be a community member there would be low. So don’t just run away from Musk. Find other goals and reasons to aim for Italy.
Also, every country and city has some assholes loving in it. Not everyone is very kind. That’s life.
I wouldn’t want to live near Napoli, or anywhere in the south. Italy is basically 2 countries. The rich north and the extremily poor south. It’s a nice country but also has it’s own issues. I love to go on holiday there, don’t know if I would want to live there. But I have the luxury of living in The Netherlands, I guess anything is better than the US right now. Knowing the language helps a lot, if you do not speak it then for sure learn Italian, even if it’s just the basics. Americans don’t have a great status as expats or tourists, anywhere really, adjusting to the customs and loosing the americanism is recommended.
It’s really bad how the country is so divided. It would be better for everyone if this would change. But there’s a lot of crime in the south, so I wouldn’t want to live there.
Might I ask about your concerns about Napoli? Are they more than crime?
Are there any areas you’d recommend? We’re looking for more community/family engagement and a slower lifestyle, if it helps.
I was just a tourist, so take that into account. But in Napoli I felt fine on the main shopping streets, but when I would take a side road I felt very unsafe and watched. It’s clear you don’t belong there and you feel a target on your back, or at least that was my experience. Tourist heavy areas are better, but there are more pickpockets there too. I felt like I constantly had to look over my shoulder and shouldn’t divert too far from the busy roads.
You know that you will have to keep paying taxes to the US, right?
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-resident-aliens-abroad
If you are a U.S. citizen or resident living or traveling outside the United States, you generally are required to file income tax returns, estate tax returns, and gift tax returns and pay estimated tax in the same way as those residing in the United States.
If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. You are subject to tax on worldwide income from all sources and must report all taxable income and pay taxes according to the Internal Revenue Code.
The question is asked probably because there’s no real way of avoiding the empire’s grip if you’re born into it, even if you naturalize as a citizen of another country.
Yeah, I only learned about it recently too… It’s pretty ironic considering that the whole “No taxation without representation” colonial shtick continues to be worshiped by the bootlickers of the empire.
Learn the language as soon as possible, at least basic level. Bureaucracy is going to be hell, there’s no nicer way to put it. But I think you’ll enjoy living in Italy. You are not happy where you are now, so it’s great you’re doing something about it. Best of luck!
Are you a cis woman? I ask because you said you have a husband and you may want a kid. Italy is going against gay adoption, and I think it’s not easier if you’re a trans woman with a cis man, for example. You could try to have some information about abortion, because right to abort isn’t the same thing to access to this right. It’s not specific to Italy, and I think a lot of European countries are currently going the same way.
Edit: I mean, if you like the country, have family and really want to leave, I don’t think it’s a bad idea.
Hi, Italian here
Italy, like many European countries, had strong social-democratic foundations. Many state jobs, strong state education, one of the best state healthcares out there, strong labour laws with contracts made by unions with specific job sectors.
That’s now mostly on paper, and things change significantly from region to region. For example Emilia Romagna is still pretty strong on those, but go to the south and you’ll see state school buildings being closed because they might collapse, or not offering any heating or A/C for the kids. Public healthcare is now very understaffed in most regions.
As for labour laws, companies aren’t exactly too happy giving the expected raises or following work hours, and unskilled jobs are a disaster of underpay and unpaid overtime.
In general, social cohesion is hit or miss. Sure,most people are welcoming and friendly, but many of them are not paying all of their taxes. You’re friends with the person in front of you, not with your whole nation.
Now that I broke some of the possible expectations: yes it’s a good idea to come here. With time you will find some job, especially in the north and centre regions, just prepare for high rents in big cities and you’ll be fine. Oh and possibly find somebody to help with taxes. If you decide for Rome, Napoli or Palermo, don’t drive right away, take your time to learn how people drive here, what to expect etc
If you’re white and have a reasonable amount of money you’ll be fine anywhere in Europe 😬… I’m only half joking.
Be careful. If you move to Italy, you might start hating people over how they eat food(like eating spaghetti with bread)
Hah, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve been on the “double carbs bad” train for awhile, but I don’t care when other people do it.
You emigrate to Italy and then you’ll be an immigrant from the US. One’s a verb, the other a noun.
Once you have Italian citizenship you’ll be able to live an work anywhere in the Schengen region. So a lot more options once you’re in.
In the future, consider ensuring you actually know what you’re talking about before attempting pedantic corrections.
That’s not the difference. Both words have noun and verb forms.
Immigrate = to move to a place
Emigrate = to move from a place
Immigrant = a person who moved to a place
Emigrant = a person who moved from a place
So they would be emigrating from the US and immigrating to Italy. They would be a US emigrant and an Italian immigrant.
I’m not too fond of the plenty Americans having the same idea.
Stay there.
