I want my own space in the internet and I set aside money for it monthly from my paychecks
i Have a homelab, i work and design computer/server/linux/security solutions for enterprises from my home. Lemmy is just another docker process in my lab.
This will also be the case for me eventually, once I get around to setting up a Lemmy instance it’ll just be joining all the other stuff already in my lab k3s cluster
As far as I understand it currently people host their own Lemmy instances just for the hell of it or out of the goodness of their heart
But the larger instances will end up costing more money and I’m doubtful that will be sustainable with no income
Larger instances will either have more donators or close their subscriptions if it really is unsustainable.
The more Lemmy grows, the more instances will show up, which will help spread the load.
You speak of sustainability but Lemmy survived the wave of incoming Redditors without much downtime. It’s really impressive that this growth could happen. That’s the power of decentralized systems: they scale!
Users actually run a lot of larger instances on the Fediverse off of donations! I run a larger Mastodon server and we get literally double our monthly costs in donations. For every month we stay open, that is two months longer we stay open. Absolutely wild. We have about 1.5k users, with about 20-30 of them donating maybe $5-10 monthly. That’s 2%-ish of the user base donating. Lemmy is LEAGUES easier to host given that it’s written in Rust and is incredibly resource efficient. So I can only imagine it’ll be even cheaper to host on donations.
Crazy-ish idea, but maybe Lemmy could make a feature where instances can have custom awards similar to Reddit gold and stuff, and users can buy them to both award posts they like and financially support the instance host
Hope not, trophies and award whoring is just as bad as karma whoring and neither is a thing here and lemmy is better off because of it.
Yeah I’d kinda rather stick to donations tbh
One other thing I don’t see people pointing out is that Lemmy is basically a successor to classic web forums, so companies may run their own so they can have full control over the experience and moderation like for movies, series’s, or games, and in which case they would be more than happy to eat the cost of hosting. For example there could be a Lemmy.Disney.com instance to act as a Disney sanctioned discussion zone for their products where they could put tons of moderation rules in place.
You can do your part! I set up a recurring donation recently, recurring donations are much better for the sustainment of an instance since the owner knows they can keep running and not have to worry about intermittent donations.
I have a pretty unique domain name and don’t mind the $7 a month to run the instance on AWS. I’m not going to do a ton with it, but I would if there was interest.
Fantastic. You go girls 🥰
I have my own just so I can be in more control of things. I just started so haven’t done much with it. The server cost is about $12 a month through linode.
I have a 4 core 24 GB ARM VPS on that Oracle free tier that I use to self host some personal services.
I just think it’s neat.
What’s the catch? How long does the free tier last?
There’s always a catch. Oracle has and will claw back that free allowance unless you meet specific criteria or move to a pay-as-you-go tier with a cc on file with a $100 authorization charge, and even then they may. Ask me how I know lol
Or they’ll just shut it down with no explanation whatsoever, even if you’ve met all of their weird criteria.
There are two classic blunders. The most famous is “never get involved in a land war in Asia”, but only slightly less well-known is this: “Never go into business with Oracle when anything of value is on the line”.
Never go into business with Oracle when anything of value is on the line
Truer words have not been spoken.
That’s not even considering that you’re not going to be able to talk to a rep about it, or appeal that claw back in any way. Hell they’ll even terminate your whole account without warning, not just the VM. If I found out the admin of the Lemmy instance I’m using was hosting it on Oracle I would delete my profile immediately without a second thought.
If I found out the admin of the Lemmy instance I’m using was hosting it on Oracle I would delete my profile immediately without a second thought.
Agreed. I still feel dirty for taking Google’s side in that ridiculous lawsuit Oracle filled after buying Sun. Only Oracle would try to make money from licensing fees for APIs…wait a minute…has Spez been talking to Elon Musk AND Larry Ellison?
Oh shit really? You get that much processing power for free? I gotta sign up to that
I do because I want to control my data and it runs on a VPS that also serves as my email server, amongst other small things. I pay about $20 USD a month which is nothing to keep my data from grubby hands. Though I must admit it was a lot of work getting my mail server running smoothly and it requires some tlc every now and again.
Mind going into some details about what you’re selfhosting overall?
I don’t host a lemmy instance yet, but I host other services and I do it mainly for fun. As far as I have read, a small scale lemmy instance runs very well on very low performance hardware, which means the cost of running it is probably less than 10 $ a month.
The big lemmy instances that need better hardware have patreons and other services where people can donate money.
I am doing it because it is fun and it is a way to try to understand how things work. I am still not sure whether my answers successfully propagate to all servers.
I don’t know about all servers, but I see you from vlemmy.net!
Can see your answer from here so all is good
Because I don’t want to be reliant on someone else’s servers, plus I can set it up exactly how I want.
As for how I pay for the server, I use a free OCI VPS, so… I don’t.
I tried to sign up to this, but it doesn’t support my bank’s “confirm purchase” thing, and it errored when I tried a virtual credit card…
I host my own. Specifically for myself and those who are friends or friends of friends.
I have a cluster of servers operating in my garage. Free real-estate for tons of stuff I want to host. I have to “pay” for electricity… the rest was already paid for long ago. My electricity cost for my whole cluster… is an estimated $1750 a year. But that cluster is 160 CPU cores, 750 GB of RAM, and ~400TB of storage. You ain’t getting that on a cloud hosted provider for $145 a month. About $110 of that is subsidized by my business operations. I host email, websites, nextcloud, plex, etc… boatloads of stuff.
I was wondering what Gilfoyle was up to these days
forget Gilfoyle I wanna know what Anton is doing to Chat GPT
You offer paid hosting with hardware in your garage? I’m getting dot-com flashbacks!
I actually do… Yes… I have dual internet connections, dedicated power off both phases of my electricity with ~5 hours of battery backup, run redundant internal infrastructure (power, network, and server hardware)… I also have a massive backup library and am currently working on obtaining offsite backups solution. The whole site/house is also monitored with cameras.
I have better uptime than some datacenters in my area have which I can truthfully quantify that as I also hold a CIO/CISO position in another company that operates out of a major Datacenter in my area.
Edit: Should clarify, an offsite backup solution that ISN’T “just peer with backblaze or some other provider” to store your backups. I intend to do a rotating tape library. With one set of tapes always being off site.
Also to mention… I have better uptime than AWS-east at this point of the year… Although there will be some outages of my infrastructure here soon for a network hardware update. I suspect something in the order of about 1 minute of downtime total.
obtaining offsite backups solution
I read this as
Put servers in my mum’s garage
deleted by creator
Gigachad is hitting five nines in their garage.
How does load balancing work across this fediverse… if at all?
What kind of load balancing are you thinking about/looking for?
If we look at Lemmy in specific…
Jobs that a server performs for users on it’s platform:
Login services(are you even you to begin with?)
Session Management (being logged in at multiple places, not mixing you up with other users…)
Subscriptions (what content to even show you… organizing them on the page… etc.)
Ban lists (and applying them to what you’re looking at)
Peering with the other platformsJobs that a server performs for off platform users: Sending ActivityPub messages to the other user’s platform.(effectively the same as “peering with other platforms” from above)
The idea is that the jobs that the server has to do for it’s local users is actually a lot more both numerically and in taxing tasks than the jobs that one particular instance has to do to send updates to the federated instances… A lot of the list in the first case is a boatload of SQL queries. The activitypub notification is effectively a broadcast of a relatively simple text that doesn’t take much bandwidth.
So let’s look at actual cases now that we have some ideas of what instances are doing.
I run a small instance, I have a few users (because I purposefully keep it small). If my users only ever interact with the fediverse through my instance, then other instances don’t have to do most of the jobs in the top list. I’ve taken that load from lemmy.ml or other bigger instances that my users would have ultimately migrated to if they didn’t have my server. The tradeoff is that my few users now cost the 1 connection for activitypub notifications.
Lets look at a theoretical “perfect” setup… 2,000,000 users across let’s say 1,000 instances. Evenly distributed. So each instance has 2,000 users. In that case, any given server would have to serve 2,000 people from the upper list and 999 activitypub broadcasts. This is significantly easier to do than have a single server try to handle all 2,000,000 users on a single instance serving nothing to the activitypub broadcasts.
There’s is one caveat with this… activitypub broadcasts will send everything that is subscribed… even if users don’t actually view it. So there could be some waste. This then leads to the discussion of well how many users until there’s a breakeven in cost of the first list vs the potential waste of the activitypub bandwidth. That answer is debatable… But most people agree that take the discussion seriously that the return on investment could be as low as 2-5 users. I think that the bandwidth cost outweighs the SQL (CPU, RAM, etc…) costs quite handily personally.
Other useful functions that occurs with this setup… As long as I got the ActivityPub message on my server… my users can see all of Lemmy.ml’s content. Regardless of if Lemmy.ml is actually running or not. We saw that with the downtime that some of the bigger servers are seeing, all the other instances could still consume the content… Just no updates were being sent.
This is relatively simplistic… I’ve skipped some nitty gritty stuff… I’ve simplified some other stuff. But this is the gist.
Edit: Other functions that you need to think about that lemmy is accomplishing for local instance users… Notifications, saved posts, language filtering, settings, profiles, avatars, reporting, slur filters, moderation, NSFW filters… The top list is actually considerably larger… like I said we simplified.
Great explanation, thanks for the write up! I have a couple of questions, if I may.
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So if I setup my own instance tomorrow, it’d be sending notifications of activity to all the other instances? Maybe I’d have to have a list of instances I’d like to notify? How does it discover the other instances?
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If my instance is listening to all other instances? Won’t saving all posts take up a lot of disk space? I guess there is only text and link data and no media, but wouldn’t it add up fast as the number of users/instances grow ?
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Now you just need solar or something feeding a battery to cover most of your electricity costs.