I’ve known sex workers who do it because they love sex, and if they’re gonna be out there having a lot of sex they might as well also get loads of money from it.
To be fair, about half of them then got into drugs and started doing it to keep up their drug habit…before the drugs they were very choosy about their clients and only picked the ones they liked, but afterwards they needed more money so they dropped standards.
But the other half were just getting paid to go on dates and have sex, which is what they’d be doing anyway.
I don’t hire sex workers because I don’t have the money for it lol. But if I did, I’d want one like that. I have no idea how rare it is.
Now that you mention it, isn’t it odd that it feels weird? I wonder exactly where the line starts to come into focus between something as innocuous as paying for a meal and something as taboo as paying for sex? Obviously that’s a question of culture, but it’s entertaining to think about nonetheless…
Like, there’s definitely something kind of unusual about this specific taboo. Speaking from the perspective of modern western culture, I’d say that the following things which share some characteristics with prostitution are all individually qualified as being relatively socially acceptable:
- Paying for therapy (i.e.: buying the service of social comfort)
- Paying for a massage (i.e.: buying the service of physical comfort)
- Having a one night stand (i.e.: receiving the service of sexual comfort without buying it)
- Buying a sex toy (i.e.: buying sexual comfort without involving a service worker)
I posit that there’s something uniquely specific about the direct intersection of service, money, and sexual pleasure which makes prostitution uniquely uncomfortable for (modern western) people to think about. I might be overthinking it, though. Perhaps these three things are already uncomfortable topics to really think about so we naturally want to resist the idea of combining them?
I think the reason is that for some people sex is not the same as any other activity you can do with your body and I think it’s not just culture but actually a neurobiological reaction.
It’s probably just odd because we know awfully little about how our brains, our hormones and whatever feelings are work. And sex is really one thing that taps into all three of these areas we don’t understand yet.
To give you another example, we can’t really explain why some types of torture are so devastating to us.
We value interactions differently because we intuitively want to be careful with things that could potentially influence us in major ways. Personally I believe buying sex feels so uncomfortable for some people because for them bonding and intimacy is connected with it. That clashes with buying it from a stranger. Also it seems kinda pointless or deranged then. Like buying a birthday party or a Christmas Eve with strangers.
Well sure, we can take it as a given that sex basically exists in its own special category. Biologically speaking, it’s an impulse older than almost any other. I think that’s self-evident enough without any need to tap into mysticism.
(Content warning: sexual violence in human history, abstract)
With that being said, it could also be argued that r-word is also deeply ingrained within human biology, particularly in the context of warfare. Even if we discount the (extensive) evidence within the anthropological record demonstrating this, there are clues baked into human physiology which seem to indicate that the human species itself is uniquely adapted to perpetrating r-word when compared amongst the other hominid species.
(Content warning concluded)
I apologize for bringing such a nasty subject up at all, but it’s useful to weigh such things when talking about the deep biological roots of sex and how it makes us think/feel. I personally believe that it’s too limiting to describe sex as an implicitly pure thing which only becomes wrong when certain impure people corrupt it. Please don’t take that as a doomer statement! I personally see it as a triumpth that, through culture, we can collectively transform an act as ambiguous as sex into an idealized and pure expression of interpersonal love. I nevertheless do still try to be mindful of the capacity for sex to exist outside of the box we’ve crafted for it, though.
Do you not have a concept of personal space? Having a person you don’t care for literally inside your body is rather different than serving them a meal. Do you think that forcing someone to give you a haircut is the same as forcing them to have sex?
Personally i don’t understand how anyone can enjoy having sex with someone who isn’t into it. The whole idea is repulsive and i think anyone who enjoys that must be very lacking in empathy.
I can tell I’ve struck a nerve here. I apologize for the harm that has caused. I am sorry.
And, yes. I do have a concept of personal space. I do think that forced sex is worse than a forced haircut. I understand the point you’re getting at, but I would appreciate it if you didn’t try to make it in such a forceful way next time. Thank you for responding.
Some people view sex as a means of expressing affection and connection, rather than as a means of having an orgasm. They would have no issue buying a sex toy to get their physical needs met, however hiring a person wouldn’t make sense to them because of the lack of emotional connection.
Rest assured, it is not necessary to explain the concept to me. I just like exploring the underlying why that leads to the how. My intention was to provide food for thought, not provoke the internet into explaining for me the joys of sharing romantic sex.
And some people don’t view sex that way. And sex work isn’t just about having an orgasm. That’s what masturbation is for. My understanding is that people who frequent sex workers do it for the human connection. That doesn’t mean an emotional connection, but human touch and physical intimacy are important for all human’s mental health. I’ve heard stories from sex workers where the customer doesn’t even end up wanting sex but to talk a bit and have someone hold them for a bit. Usually they prefer the respectful ones who just want sex with a human and leave though.
Because people want to have sex with someone who actually finds them attractive.
I have considered it for exactly that reason. My family is healthy and happy except for that my wife completely lost her sex drive after childbirth and finds sex not just to be a chore but to be completely revolting.
I don’t want to tear my family apart just to get laid. I’m not interested in loving some other woman or having an affair, I love my wife and my daughter and I have no need for another relationship.
However it’s been years of celibacy and what I do need is sex, but without romance and with a professional who as they say “you don’t pay them for the sex, you pay them to leave afterwards”.
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I mean, it just depends on why. I don’t look down on it as a whole, but if you’re in a relationship and doing it on the side, I think you’re a scumbag. That would go for women, too though.
I personally wouldn’t date a man who’s into that, I’d be too worried they’d indulge while we’re together, and that’s a hard no for me.
where, which sex workers, and which services? i think men who spend more money on onlyfans than they do on groceries are dumb, i think strip clubs are fucken weird, i think sex tourists probably deserve death, and i think most johns are walking into a minefield of exploitation.
Better than rapists. No more no less.
IMO the more that money is involved in anything, the less actually voluntary it is, because we need money to live and plenty of people don’t have a lot of options for making money. With sex it’s really important for everything to be actually consensual, but paying for it makes that ambiguous, they can’t really know, so I see it as creepy and unethical.
I’ve known people who are sex workers and they’re some of the most talented and intelligent people I’ve ever met. Replace sex-worker with marketing and that’s who they are. There’s nothing involuntary about what they do. Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don’t want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don’t want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Yeah, pretty much, it’s one of the worst things about our society and needs fixing in general. It’s just potentially extra bad when sex is involved because of its emotional, cultural, etc. significance. I don’t mean to suggest all sex workers are desperate victims, I’m sure some of them are well off, have options, and are doing it because they want to, but they all have a business incentive to try to appear that way, so someone looking to hire them can’t really be confident what they are doing isn’t ultimately exploitation.
Right, if you pay to have sex with a person that’s utterly destitute, completely desperate, and has no other options, is that REALLY consensual?
There are plenty of examples of sex workers that are NOT in that situation, but there are just as many (I would guess more) examples of people that ARE in that situation.
I’d be curious to see whether sex workers increase/decrease in a region that implements a universal basic income.
I couldn’t really pin down exactly what my problem with sex work was until reading this. I try not to judge, but I’ve always found it problematic and I do find myself feeling like it shouldn’t have to be a thing. Anecdotally, every person I’ve interacted with who brought the topic up always joked about wanting to do it just for the money.
The fact that it’s paid for as a service makes it inherently open to exploitation, and thus unethical.
I know you probably mean prostitutes or “escorts”, but aren’t porn actors also sex workers? I watch porn all the time, so do a lot of people. I feel sorry for the sad sacks who aren’t “allowed” to look at porn because their significant other is so goddamn insecure, the idea of their partner having their own private thoughts scares the shit out of them.
You are correct, but people treat “prostitute” like it’s a slur and thereby (wittingly or not) wildly obfuscate any conversation one attempts to have about them and their clientele, etc.
I know a guy who does, and while it doesn’t really matter I’m my opinion, he’s kind of a weirdo sleezebag already so it’s kind of expected. I suspect there’s a correlation that makes it a little hard to separate the service from the kind of guy who would seek out the service.
I dont care
So long as they treat the women properly, and said women is not being forced to work as a sex worker.
So you are against prostitution in practice but not in theory?
If you’re paying for sex in the west, then my opinions are more nuanced and less harsh since, economically speaking, workers here are generally in a better position to choose their profession, including sex work, without any coercion other than the standard coercion of capitalism.
However, if you’re a sexpat traveling to developing and underdeveloped countries, you deserve to be thrown into the pit. Sex workers here are more likely to be poorer, desperate, pimped out, and/or trafficked by the mafia. Not to mention many are underage. There is no choice for 99% of the sex workers, or any workers. I don’t care if the age of consent there is 12, you’re still going to into the pit.
I agree with you. I also want you to know that I love the expression “you deserve to be thrown into the pit.” What is the pit? I don’t know, but I don’t want to be there. 😁
I think it’s in reference to the mass graves Tito threw dead nazi soldiers in
What is the pit? I don’t know, but I don’t want to be there. 😁
I think you are underestimating the desperation of the very poor in austerity states like the US, but you are 100% right that sexpats are scum
I don’t believe I am underestimating. Im just saying that in the west, there is a higher chance (relative to third world countries) that you can decide to become a sex worker on your own volition. Obviously there are still pimps and poverty driving the scene, but you’re likely never going to find someone in say, Vietnam or Thailand, or who just got tired of office work and decided to become a pornstar or escort.
Though certainly in different proportions, I think courtesans exist in every country.
I feel like them and a lot of other people are also underestimating the amount of sex trafficed victims that are forced into it here in the west.
If you support the sex workers, this is the main answer. If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
It’s pretty straight forward, really.
hexbear user being utterly predictable
good to see we’re renowned for our correct opinions already
Can’t make a proper argument- check
Must rely on memes and gifs to communicate- check
On the rare occasion they actually put their big boy pants on and write some text it’s super offensive/racist/bigoted- check
Hexbear user confirmed.
racist
What, do you think cracker is a slur?
If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
The Nordic or neo-abolitionist model exists. Sweden was the first nation to implement it I think. Selling sex is legal, buying is not. Seems to work for them
You’ve got that backwards. In Sweden, buying is illegal, selling is not. Essentially turning the customer into a rapist and the seller into a victim. And rightly so! Considering that most women selling sex are doing so because of human trafficking, or at least coercion or desperation, it’s cruel, immoral, and ironic that they are criminalized in the rest of the world outside of Sweden and the other countries that have followed their model.
Men who pay for sex are the driving force behind human trafficking.
That’s exactly what I said. I’ll just quote myself here:
Selling sex is legal, buying is not.
Apologies. I swear I reread your comment 3 times, and each time I replaced legal with illegal in my mind. I see it now!
I think you are agreeing with the post above yours. They said that selling sex is legal, while buying is not.
Yes. My mistake. Thanks.
Seems to work for them.
Do you know something I don’t? From what I hear both sex workers and johns continue to exist, just like in the old abolitionist/prohibitionist model.
The point isn’t to prohibit it, it’s to give the prostitute the legal advantage when reporting the john (and thereby rein in the behavior of johns with the tacit threat)
Well that’s nice, but I feel like it could also be abused. What if a prostitute (which is one kind of sex worker) threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?
It’d probably be best to regulate the entire thing as a legal industry and put in place some sort of watchlist for suspected bad johns.
What if a prostitute . . . threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?
They already can and sometimes do, usually as honeypots (here I mean the criminal kind). “Blackmail is illegal” and also blackmailing someone being very dangerous are two major elements preventing it. I don’t think making buying legal would be a significant factor since usually the blackmail is on the level of social standing, not getting charged with a relatively minor crime (generally a misdemeanor). Furthermore, especially because prostitution exists more in the open in these societies, the prostitute who blackmails would also have her reputation damaged quite severely, to the point that it might not be viable for her to continue her profession if it gets out that she even attempted blackmail – to say nothing of the fact that, not to beat a dead horse, having someone who absolutely hates your guts (the victim) makes being a prostitute much more dangerous: What if this is one of the old john’s friends or someone he hired to hurt you?
“The plight of the johns” is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex. Prostitutes are much more likely to be desperate – though less likely in these countries than in a place like the US.
Well, there’s some good arguments there. But making something you want people to do illegal is certainly counterintuitive and doesn’t seem like a sane approach to me.
“The plight of the johns” is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex.
Ah, so you do want to prohibit sex work. I get that’s not what you think you’re saying, but prostitutes can’t exist without johns, and so it doesn’t fall under “support sex workers”. Now, abolishing sex work is a thing intelligent, well-meaning people argue for as well, but that’s a different conversation.
Yeah this. And until I find out, unfortunately my mind goes to the stories I’ve heard. I know that’s uncharitable in the same way that it’d be uncharitable to do the same thing but replace sex work with grocery work or any other mundane customer service job. But yeah that’s where my mind goes
I find the whole concept pretty disturbing and wouldn’t befriend them myself.
Think of the local economy
What is your opinion on men that make use of sex worker services?
Same as any other business transaction.
No judgement. BUT. I have slightly less of an opinion of those who do it when visiting a foreign country. Like a number of other things (such as gambling) I don’t quite like the idea of a city having their citizens relying on sex tourism for sustainability, which by itself is whatever. But mixing that with the concept of fetishizing other races makes it icky. I can’t imagine a man with “class” doing it.
I’m the opposite. If someone does it at home, they probably do so regularly while a vacation is once every now and then. I’ve known a couple of normal people that did it on vacay, it’s just another facet of the party for them, letting down their hair etc. The ones I know that do it at home tho…yikes. But it’s all kind of gross regardless.
Where do they go “on vacay,” pray tell?
It’s not always sex tourism. Of the people I was referring to, it was during a week-long fishing trip, the prostitution wasn’t the reason for the trip and only occupied a small part of it.
I think it’s gross regardless and I’d rather none of it was a reality, so you’ll have to find someone else to argue with.
This is something I struggle with too. On the one hand, I don’t want to say all instances are bad but there exists, definitely in Asian countries, sex work that caters specifically to ethnically based fetishes. On the one hand, fine, whatever gets your jimmy’s off as long as it’s consensual but I also think that these are often going to result in more exploitative environments when they occur in lower income areas.
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In countries where it is legal and taxed (for example Germany) the state basically profits from poor people getting dragged there to work in the sex industry. Regulated doesn’t mean people aren’t getting exploited.
You are ignoring the very important element of poverty. The prostitutes in these countries (SE Asia, historically Eastern Europe) are typically desperately poor and these tourists are burning money on leveraging the wealth they have from the imperial core to basically use these people as slaves, typically with few words that even could be spoken between then and no recourse for the prostitute if the john gets violent (what is she going to do, tell the cops that she was assaulted by the westerner she was prostituting for? Whose side would they take?)
