I have a few questions on how to best behave to be as welcoming and inclusive as possible without sounding bad. I hope you guys don’t hate me.
I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him? Is that how I should tell people? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?
How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
I’d love some help with all of this.
Mostly it’s chill - don’t worry about it. If you make an honest mistake, no sane person will think less of you for it. The real faux pas people keep running into is usually just being a cock about this. It’s reasonably easy to avoid.
You likely don’t need to tell anyone IRL. You’re a guy, so he/him is natural. Nobody’s likely to even ask. Same applies if it’s obvious online, otherwise feel free to add it in your profile or something.
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
Most people are cis (etc) anyway, so the obvious guess is mostly safe. You rarely need to refer to anyone by a pronoun before they’re introduced to you. In that case it’s “they” - perfectly normal, native English for centuries, which people sometimes forget. Then, if someone’s introduced as “Bob” he’s probably fine with “he” etc.
If you’re worried about getting it wrong, I’d just wait for a name or refer to them some other way.
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
IRL that’s unlikely, neopronouns are pretty niche even on the internet. He/she/they will do in the vast majority of cases. People who insist on one of the other ones are fairly rare.
Your pronouns are whatever you would like to be referred to. Generally someone would either correct you or you would hear the right ones during conversation to learn someone else’s. If they outwardly present as a specific gender then I would normally assume (or default to they/them) and just apologize and correct if someone corrects me. Most normal people will take such an interaction in stride without further thought.
In terms of online, people often add it to their profile so you know, or to indicate to others that you respect their choice of pronouns.
In terms of online, people often add it to their profile so you know, or to indicate to others that you respect their choice of pronouns.
This is the only reason I show my pronouns in my email signature and in virtual meetings. I think it’s important to normalize that people have and use different pronouns and, as an educator, it’s my responsibility to infuse SOGI (sexual orientation and gender identity) into my practices. Every action, however small, moves the needle.
Come to think of it, I should probably figure out how to do that on Lemmy, since I think there’s display name settings?
Honestly, I think that if I would say “my pronouns are he/him”, people would think that’s a weird thing to say and would think something like “oh, it’s one of those woke people”.
Where I live, the people that tell you about their pronouns are a minority, and they are usually people that need to tell you their pronouns to avoid confusion, or people that are particularly active in the “woke” community.
For 99% of the people you meet, it’s fair to assume pronouns because it’s obvious. And if your assumption was wrong, they can just tell you. No need to get butthurt over it.
Saying “my pronouns are…” without anyone asking for them is just ridiculous in my opinion. Like, what are people going to say 5 years from now? “My name is …, my pronouns are …, my ethnicity is …, I live in … and my favorite color is …”?
What a dumb way to start a conversation. You know, the whole point of a conversation is that you ask and answer questions, or share things you like to share. We don’t need to share everything in the introduction sentence, including pronouns. It’s just pointless most of the time.
To be clear: if anyone wants to tell me their pronouns right away, all good, I won’t dislike you for it. Just don’t expect the same from me, just assume my pronouns and I’ll be happy to correct you on the off chance that you’re wrong.
I apologize if my comment sounds a bit whiny or if I sounded a bit touchy. I was just a bit annoyed with the amount of comments that seem to suggest telling people what your pronouns is is a common thing in real life, while in my experience, almost no one will ever do that, since it’s obvious in 99.9% of all cases.
But I suppose I could have phrased my comment a bit less aggressively and I could have made my point clear with less rambling.
while in my experience, almost no one will ever do that, since it’s obvious in 99.9% of all cases.
Just because you have little knowing experience with people that don’t match what you consider “normal” doesn’t mean it’s near non-existant. You seem to be under the impression that people are going out of their way to address a non-issue when it very much affects real people.
You don’t need to do it yourself, but dismissing it, calling it stupid or ridiculous, or just generally insinuating that it’s something only weird people do is not helpful or kind. Quite the opposite, really.
The reality is that not everyone can go out of their way to adapt to every minority group in existence. I get that it affects people, but that’s just life. Social norms are based on the most common needs and interests of society, not on those of each minority group combined.
As another example, consider neurodivergent people (ASD, AD(H)D, etc.). Such people (including myself) may struggle when trying to live in a world where most people are “normal” (e.g. poor social skills, anxiety, sensitivity to noises, etc.). It would be nice if everyone could adapt to the needs of all others, but it’s unrealistic in practice due to how many different people with different needs there are in this world.
I don’t go to people and expect them to adapt to my needs either, because I’m not entitled to their effort to adapt. Unless they are close friends, and they get to know me better, then maybe they will choose to avoid doing things that make me uncomfortable.
My point is: stop trying to revolutionize the world and introduce new social norms based on the needs of very tiny groups, you’ll only annoy people.
no one is demanding you
In that case my previous comment is irrelevant and off-topic. It was a misinterpretation of your comment on my end.
In my original comment I did say that I don’t have a problem with people that do tell me their pronouns, even if I do think that’s a bit stupid and weird (we will have to agree to disagree on this one I’m afraid). This does not mean I’m not accepting of others, I only mean that I think this specific kind of social interaction feels weird to me.
I apologize if my opinion of this comes over as unkind or unhelpful. In fact I might even agree that it is unhelpful and unkind, but I much rather share an unhelpful opinion than a dishonest one (perhaps it is better for me to stay quiet in this case). I’m sure many people share my opinion or have a similar one. You also can’t expect people to immediately change their opinion or be dishonest about it based on the needs of a minority group.
I also apologize if my initial comment sounded too aggressive and/or hateful. Maybe I should have chosen a more polite way to share this opinion?
I think I know what he means. It’s perfectly acceptable to just use him or her for 99.999% of people, and if you just so happen to meet one of the 0.001% of people that goes out of their way to draw attention to themselves by being offended, they’re probably not worth wasting oxygen on lol
Yeah true, but if you start a conversation with “my pronouns are…”, the vast majority of people will assume you’re incredibly self-centred, let’s be honest here. Not a great way to start a conversation
So we’ve gone from “0.001% get offended about pronouns” to “It’s self centered (ie ‘wrong’) to introduce yourself with pronouns.” Maybe just let people engage with the world in the way that best suits them? Sometimes that includes prefacing an introduction with pronouns to head off any mistakes or discomfort. These people are just trying to get by. Try not to be so judgemental.
While I personally wouldn’t go as far as to call people self-centered, I do think Mr Blott has a point, a lot of people may think they are self-centered for immediately declaring their pronouns (or anything else other than your name for that matter).
Anyway, that wasn’t what I was trying to say. All I wanted to say is that I don’t think that announcing your pronouns is something that will be or should be normalized, since it’s pointless for the vast majority of people. I do understand why some people would prefer to do this anyway to avoid the awkward situations like “ahem, actually it’s… euuh… he, not she”, and I don’t have a problem with that.
and I don’t have a problem with that.
You both very clearly do. Stuff like calling things pointless and ridiculous, advocating for the “vast majority” or “99.999%” of people? That only serves to isolate and "other"ize. It’s hurtful and dismissive of real people. Following it up with “but people can do what they want” doesn’t erase what you say. Might as well start it off with “No offense, but…”
If you are truly trying to be kind and accepting here, maybe take some time to self reflect on how you view and talk about these things and what’s behind that.
I agree that it’s weird, but I think sharing pronouns in an introduction is different from sharing ethnicity, place of living, and favorite color.
The latter 3 does not matter in a conversation, but the pronouns are always part of conversations: when you’re speaking about Greg, you don’t repeatedly say their name (“yeah, Greg has came into office half an hour ago, and Greg has been to the fridge, and Greg has prepared Greg’s desktop, Greg is playing on the PlayStation since then. You can find Greg in the game room”) because that’s weird, you instead refer to it in a shorter form after the first time: with pronouns (“yeah, Greg has came into office an hour ago, and he has been to the fridge, and he has prepared his desktop, he is playing on the PlayStation since then. You can find him in the game room”)So my point is that it shouldn’t hurt to also include your pronouns, when it’s not obvious, because they will be used, and it will probably bother you. And we all (should) know that unhappy people won’t be efficient, not just in work but neither in life. Are you a he? You don’t want to be called a she either, right?
Fair point, it doesn’t hurt to include it. But my point is that in most cases it’s irrelevant and it isn’t something everyone has to start doing.
When I go outside and look around me, 99% of the people don’t need to tell me what their pronouns are, because I guess simply guess them with high certainty based on how they look. You might disagree with this if you feel like everyone should be able to choose their own pronouns (which is fine by me), but in reality most people don’t want to tell you their pronouns, they want you to look at them and just know.
But my point is that in most cases it’s irrelevant and it isn’t something everyone has to start doing.
I did not yet see this happening IRL, but I can see that just exclaiming it is not appropriate. Though maybe they honestly just don’t know what better way is there to introduce themselves, and to be clear, I don’t know either.
When I go outside and look around me, 99% of the people don’t need to tell me what their pronouns are, because
Because you won’t have to do anything with them. They don’t tell their name either, because why would they do that, when just passing by on the street?
However at introductions there is a place for the pronouns, however weird it sounds today. I mean, introduction is about letting others know you and your things that you find relatively important.but in reality most people don’t want to tell you their pronouns,
Never said anyone would have to. I would never do that either, because is it obvious. Same for most people, because it is obvious. This is an optional thing, even for non-binary people: only those have to tell it who want to do so.
Getting someone’s pronouns wrong once really isn’t too big of a deal. What’s more important is how you react to being corrected and using what they ask you to going forward.
I still don’t know a good way to ask people their pronouns. Or rather I haven’t had to do it often so I don’t have much practice still so I still feel weird. Sometimes I get nervous that asking someone their pronouns might even make them feel like they don’t pass as the gender they want to present as. I’ve talked about this with people and the advice I’ve been given is that the best way to do it is to introduce yourself with your own pronouns. I still haven’t really had much opportunity to do it so not sure how to make it flow conversationally but the idea is that you’re giving everyone the opportunity to do the same plus it lets them know that you won’t react poorly to hearing someone tell you their pronouns.
I’ve really only met one person who prefers they/them and a couple of she/they folks. The trans people I have met all pass well enough in my brain that I don’t have to consciously try to use the correct pronoun. It just takes some effort to get used to.
Back in, say, 2016 or so there was a meme about “did you just assume my gender?” It was always a caricature and it seems like most people either want you to assume it or are okay if you get it wrong so long as you correct yourself once they correct you.
I still don’t know a good way to ask people their pronouns.
in-person you can do this by offering yours when introduced. this protects binary trans people trying to use cultural indicators of gender from some abuse and normalizes the practice for non-conforming people, nicely resolving the competing accessibility needs of people trying to use existing gender norms and people outside them.
online you can ask your admin to do what hexbear does with display names and ban anyone being shitty about it.
It’s insane, literally, to care about this. Making language more complex than its simplicity of expression needs to be is insane.
Stop buying into this you loons.
First off, thanks for asking and wanting to be more inclusive! :)
For your pronouns, you decide. If you typically go by “he/him” you can keep doing that, it’s up to you.
Depending on the setting, people around you might all introduce themselves with their prefered pronouns, you can introduce yourself with your pronouns if you wish to whenever though.
Similar to how you might tell people a different name you prefer to go by. So if your given name was Nicholas but you prefere to go by “Nick,” you might introduce yourself like, “Nice to meet you, I’m Nicholas, but just call me Nick.” likewise, you can say something like, “Nice to meet you, I’m Nick, He/Him”
Online, it’s fairly common now to have your pronouns in your profile or bio. Again, it’s up to you if you want to put them in your bio or not. Some sites have actual places in the sign up screen or profile page to place your pronouns, it depends on the site/software.
It’s rare for people to get offended IRL if you unintentionally mis-gender them. Most people will correct you politely in the same way they might if you called them by an incorrect name. So if you said, “Hey Nicholas, how are your classes going this semester?” they might say, “Oh, you can just call me Nick. Classes are going well so far, how about yours?”
Often people that know them will correct you politely too if you don’t know and used the wrong pronouns. I’ve had it happen a few times over the years and everybody has always been very polite about it. I just quickly say, “oh sorry, my bad.” and then just make sure to remember their pronouns going forward.
I personally have some family and friends that use they/them vs she/her or he/him. It’s a thing for sure, we all support them and their pronouns. It’s not very tough to get used to, and as long as you correct yourself if you make a mistake, nobody will be hurt. It’s fundamentally about loving them and being inclusive and supportive.
Thank you for the comment I added he/him to my bio. Not sure if it’s in the right place.
No prob, cool deal!
Trans woman here. Your pronouns are he/him unless you’d rather be addressed with other ones. There’s multiple ways to handle exchanging them but one of the popular strategies is look at how a person is presenting, how gendered their name is, etc and if it seems pretty strongly leaning one way you can guess otherwise give your pronouns and they give theirs in return. At least that’s what I do.
Thank u that makes sense.
I’m not the op, but like them im a cishet male. is it useful (to the movement, to non cishet, to LGBTQ+ people in general) to adopt pronouns other than what would be expected, perhaps to normalise them in much the same way that “partner” has been?
or would that generally be regarded as, well, something akin to cultural appropriation? or as malicious adoption, like “i identify as an attack helicopter”?
or would that generally be regarded as, well, something akin to cultural appropriation? or as malicious adoption, like “i identify as an attack helicopter”?
It’s none of those things.
It’s more akin to pretending your name is Matt even though your name is Tom. You’re not going to offend anyone, and if it turns out that Matt feels right for you, then go for it, you’re Matt now. But if you’re not Matt, and don’t feel like Matt, then calling yourself Matt won’t achieve much for you or anyone else.
It’s not appropriation, but if you don’t want to be called “xe/xem” then for crap’s sake don’t ask people to!
well, I mean, it’s no skin off my neck either way. I have no problem with being he/him, but I certainly wouldn’t be offended be xe/xem (or for that matter she/her 😅 which was a mistake at least one person made during the mask mandate, when my beard wasn’t so visible)
I’d just like to do what I can to make life easier for those who are faced with more everyday difficulties than I am, especially when it costs me so little.
If I’ve never heard anyone else use a specific pronoun for someone new or I otherwise don’t know, I try to use they/them. Otherwise I use what others do.
And if someone does let you know that a person/themselves prefer a specific one, always say thanks (you can’t be sorry for something you didn’t know!) and do your best to remember for next time.
I also try to use genderless terms like “folks” or just “everyone” instead of “guys”
I’ll try to pick up that habit. Thank you. That’s a good suggestion.
Pro tip: everyone is they/them until otherwise stated. It sounds counterintuitive until you look at the example of the unknown stranger. You see a jacket left on the back of the a chair, and wonder if the stranger will return. You ask a person nearby, “Do you know who this belongs to? When are they coming back?”
English has always used neutral pronouns for someone unknown to you. We constantly make assumptions about gender based on appearance, and cis people take for granted that our outward appearance matches their gender. My best take on being an ally and inclusive is to default to gender neutral pronouns until someone states it or corrects you.
Are my pronouns he/him?
Probably. Your pronouns are what you want them to be. If someone says “I saw shapis at the park yesterday, but he looked busy so I didn’t say hi to him,” are he and him what you want in those positions?
(I’m going to assume you’re a he/him for the rest of this, but if you want something else let me know and I’ll edit the post.)
Is that how I should tell people?
Yeah, you’d say “my pronouns are he/him.”
Do you actually tell them as you meet them? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue?
In person, it comes up in group meetings where people are making an effort to be inclusive, typically gender diverse or far left crowds. Someone will mention it, or people will just start doing it. You don’t have to be the first person to start adding pronouns. But if you’re in a crowd with someone you know would appreciate it, it’d be nice to start it on your own (without singling them out).
The most awkward option is that you introduce yourself without pronouns, then it goes around the room and people start; in that case just pipe up and say yours are he/him.
How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?
Having it in your profile online is a good idea. Online it’s way more important, since it also combats “there are no girls on the internet.”
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
If someone has a gender presentation you can’t figure out, ask. If you’re pretty sure, guess. It’s a minor faux pas to get it wrong, but it’s within the realm of the inevitable awkwardness of human interaction, just say sorry once, correct yourself, and move on. Think of it as being as rude as accidentally stepping on someone’s foot. (Think about how rude that’d be if you kept doing it though.)
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
It is very rare, but they’re out there. People with really unconventional pronouns (I’ve met a fae/faer) are going to understand if you have to slow down when talking about them. Generally they’re chosen by people whose gender identity is nonconventional enough that they’re willing to put up with the hassle to get something that feels more right to them.
he and him what you want in those positions?
I had never stopped to think about this. I guess the answer in my partícular case is I literally don’t care which ones they use. Hm. Not sure what that means.
Thank you for the detailed comment.
in my partícular case is I literally don’t care which ones they use. Hm. Not sure what that means.
Some people don’t have internal gender feelings and just go with whatever they were assigned at birth out of convenience. I actually started that way and slowly drifted to feeling like my assigned gender much later in life.
Other times, someone realizing that is the first sign they’re trans. If you ask a group of trans people, that’ll probably be some of their origin stories. But I don’t think it’s actually that common overall (trans people are rare!). So what I’d recommend to you, and the other five people reading this that identify with your statement, is that you all sit down and think about your gender feelings a bit, so the trans one can get on with her life.
But anyway, pronouns options for the “assigned male but I don’t care” crowd are he/him, he/them, they/them, he/him/any, and any. For that last one, in a crowd where people are saying pronouns, you’d just say “any pronouns are fine”. (Long time hexbears know I used to rock the he/him/any.)
seconding this. i started as not caring. realised im non-binary but still don’t really care. pronouns don’t really bother me, as for me, how other people view and refer to me doesn’t really affect my internal feelings on my gender. obviously this isn’t the case for all trans people, some definitely want to be seen and referred to as their self-id gender.
Ahh I see, now I get it. I never quite understood the need for the (he/she/them) when meeting new groups because I always felt aggressively apathetic to my own pronouns; sort of a “I don’t care what you call me it doesn’t change my feeling of me”. But your comment and this chain helped that click for me!
Its quite important that you remember what the late Michael Jacksons pronouns were. They were He/He
answering your questions as best I can (I’m a straight male too) in order:
- if he/him seems right to you, then your pronouns are he/him. if other pronouns seem right to you, then your pronouns are those pronouns. pronouns don’t have to match up with your gender or presentation, go with whatever you vibe with
- when meeting new people, I give my name and pronouns. “hi, my name is salarua and my pronouns are he/him.” of course, it’s nice to give your pronouns when asked, but other than that it’s up to you
- just including your pronouns in your profile is good. some people put them in their nicks, some in their bio or about me. if you have a Mastodon, Akkoma, Misskey, or Firefish account you can put your pronouns in your custom fields
- you can try and figure out other people’s pronouns from how other people refer to them. many people will also give their pronouns if you introduce yourself with your pronouns. it’s not a faux pas to not know someone’s pronouns beforehand, although I admit I don’t know a non-awkward way to ask someone their pronouns
- a good bet is to refer to people whose pronouns you don’t know as they/them. if you mispronoun someone by mistake, quietly correct yourself and continue with whatever you’re saying. “so after arriving at the office, he- sorry, they went to go see their supervisor about the presentation…” as long as it’s not done out of malice, people don’t mind being mispronouned if you acknowledge the slip-up and move on
- I haven’t met anyone irl with neopronouns either. presumably people with neopronouns would go by them if they were among people they felt safe with. unfortunately most of the world isn’t safe :(
You kind of don’t have to think about it this much. Someone who cares will tell you their preferred pronouns, in which case you’d say he/him then move on with your day
in which case you’d say he/him
If that’s their preferred pronoun
Yes, basically yours are he/him since you don’t identify as a different gender.
You only tell people if asked. No one will ask, because there isn’t any ambiguity about your gender identity. If you’d like, I’ve seen many straight cisgendered men put he/him in their profiles as support for the community.
Use your best judgement, most people will go by the gender you assume. If someone corrects you, apologize and use the correct pronouns from them on.
I have one friend that transitioned. She’s just a she now. Simple as that.
I have another friend that changed their name. The group I was with was confused on their pronouns, so I just asked them and they told me. Asking what they are shows that you respect them and their decisions.
If you respect people and use the pronouns they request, you shouldn’t go wrong.
If I’m asked then I say my pronoun is his royal highness.
I call others by their cis gender unless either it’s obvious like wearing a dress or corrected. People can choose how they want to be addressed but shouldn’t expect me to know lol.
One extra note on using they them when you don’t know: No, I’m going to assume that the person is not in the 2% of people that look like one gender and aren’t.
